Showing posts with label fermentation. Show all posts
Showing posts with label fermentation. Show all posts

Wednesday, September 07, 2016

Campbell's book a text book on canning, preserving and pickling



Campbell's book a text book on canning, preserving and pickling

Author: Clyde H Campbell
Publisher: [New York], [Canning Age], [©1929]
Format : Book : Document : English
Subjects: Canning and preserving.

This early work is ideal for the boutique and home canner. 

Folks: I'm leaving this link online for you to download the whole work. I scanned it and created a searchable PDF document. As I have to pay for bandwidth (internet access) just like you, after a while I'll turn the downloadability off. If you are reading this and still want the book, message me by leaving a reply to this post. I don't check replies frequently, but if you leave a way to contact you, I'll do it.

If you have a subscribing library to the Hathi Trust, you can also download the entire PDF there.

Friday, July 04, 2014

How To Make Sauerkraut

I sometimes post on Facebook about fermented foods. Today, I posted and had the document removed because the group administrator isn't fully knowledgeable about copyright laws. This post is to provide a link to those who have an interest back from the Facebook page to here.


Campbell's book; canning, preserving and pickling, by Clyde H. Campbell ...

Main Author: Campbell, Clyde H
Language(s): English
Published: [Chicago, Vanco publishing corp., publishers of the Food packer] 1937 [i.e. 1945]
Canning and preserving > Bibliography 
Canning and preserving 


http://catalog.hathitrust.org/Record/001522728


CHAPTER XXXI

SAUERKRAUT

SAUERKRAUT is the product made by the lactic fermentation of shredded cabbage in a weak salt solution. The United States Department of Agriculture definition for sauerkraut is as follows:

"Sauerkraut is the clean, sound product, of characteristic acid flavor, obtained by the full fermentation, chiefly lactic, of properly prepared and shredded cabbage in the presence of not less than two per cent (2%) nor more than three per cent (3%) of salt. It contains, upon completion of the ferment-ation, not less than one and one-half per cent (1.6%) of acid, expressed as lactic acid. Sauerkraut which has been rebrined in the process of canning or repacking contains not less than one per cent (1%) of acid, expressed as lactic acid."

The importance of kraut as a food is so great that it is not amiss to state some of its important values: On account of its sharp, acid character, it is quite palatable and appetizing. It contains lactic, which aids in digestion and regulates the removal of waste materials from the body, stimulates the normal action of the intestines, and prevents the growth of harmful bacteria which sometimes causes auto-intoxication. Being rich in vitamins, it is a preventive of scurvy, and is also a therapeutic in cases of diabetes, excess of uric acid and other diseases. Some have used it successfully in reducing high blood pressure.

The juice from the kraut is especially appetizing and is served in many hotels as a cocktail.



The average composition of cabbage is:

Per cent
Moisture  91.50
Protein      1.60
Fat             0.30
Crude fiber 1.10
Ash             1.00
Total carbohydrates 5.60

Cabbage, in addition to containing lime, potash, phosphates, and iron, contains vitamins A, B, and C. The protein and minerals in the ash act as food to sustain the fermentation. This fermentation converts the sugar to lactic acid, and in addition to this, there is formed alcohol, acetic and butyric acids in small amounts. The amount of lactic acid produced depends upon the amount of sugar, protein and minerals present. Weather conditions and heat will, to a certain extent, control the rapidity of the fermentation.

Cabbage used in making kraut should be firm, and only sound heads fully matured with the outer green leaves removed. There is a difference of opinion as to the best variety to be used in making kraut. Dutchess, All Season, Succession, Glory, and Copenhagen are varieties that are often used.

Cabbage is usually stored in bins or cribs outside the plant where there can be a free circulation of air. This prevents excess wilting, heating, and the development of putrefying bacteria. It is necessary that the cabbage wilt some, otherwise in cutting, the cabbage will be too brittle and break into small pieces instead of giving the proper "shred." The heads can be transferred by means of an endless belt or conveyor to help those who core, and remove the green, withered, and dirty outside leaves. Washing the cabbage before cutting is considered beneficial because it removes the undesirable bacteria (such as the objectionable soil bacteria) on the sur face of the cabbage, while the bacteria that are desirable are within the head and not removed by washing.

The core is not removed, but cut or sliced very fine by rapid revolving conical blades. The outer leaves that are removed are dropped on an endless belt that conveys them outside the coring room, where they are hauled away either to an incinerator, or to farms where they are ploughed under shortly after being dumped.

The cored cabbage is conveyed by belts to the shredders where it is cut into very fine shreds and again conveyed by belts to trucks or carts, where it is salted before being dumped. The cabbage may be given a thin or thick cut according to the judgment of the manufacturer. A fine shred, long cut, makes a better appearance than a coarse, medium cut. An objection to the fine shred, long cut, is that it packs too tightly and cooks to pieces. Set the knife blades about the thickness of a five cent piece (about 1/16 of an inch) to produce a good thickness. Different plants have different layouts that require modifications in handling. Instead of salting in carts, salting may be done as the cabbage is being dumped from conveyors into the tanks.

Salting at the rate of 3 to 3½ pounds per 100 pounds of cut cabbage will give very good results, but some prefer salting at the rate of 2½ pounds per 100 of cabbage.

One of the secrets of well cured uniform kraut is due to proper and careful scattering of the salt. Lack of uniformity may permit the development of wild yeast and putrefying bacteria. A medium ground packers salt gives the best results. Before filling, the tanks should be clean and sweet. Clean them in the same manner as pickle tanks are cleaned. If possible, a concrete floor should be placed in the fermentation room. Tanks should be raised high enough to permit washing and spraying underneath. Also space should be allowed between them to permit passage. The ferment-ation room should be kept clean and sweet, and whenever possible the air should be changed by opening the doors and windows even if only for a "short time during the warmest part of the day. Unless the cabbage which falls to the floor is swept up, it will in time start decomposition. The air be-coming ladened with bacteria that cause this offensive odor may contaminate good tanks. Disinfectants should be used, but should be of such a nature that they will not have an odor that may permeate the air to such an extent that the kraut will absorb it. Dilute hypochlorite solution sprayed, or else unslaked lime scattered on the floors will aid wonderfully in sweetening the air. A clean factory coupled with sanitary methods of handling will produce a high grade finished product.

In filling tanks, the brine should be tested occasionally with a salometer to check the salting.

As kraut is cut when the weather is cool, the cabbage is cold when it goes into the tanks, and the fermentation will be slow in starting, so that complete fermentation may not result until the following spring.

Very few kraut factories are equipped to heat the fermenting room, and even if they were, the large tanks of cold cabbage would take a very long time for the heat to penetrate to the center and give the proper temperature that is conductive to a healthy and rapid fermentation. Marten claims that from 60 to 65 degrees F. is the most favorable temperature for quality, as he found that high temperatures produce soft and pink kraut. Dr. E. F. LeFevre found the proper temperature for this fermentation is 86 degrees F. and when it falls below this, the activity of the bacteria is decreased. A temperature of about 88 degrees F. may be applied to the shredded cabbage as it enters the carts or tanks. The conveyors may be covered with a galvanized or metal frame for a distance of about 8 to 10 feet from the end, with live steam pipes running along the sides and top of the cover. This, live steam, coming in contact with the cabbage, warms it so that active fermentation will start very quickly, and in some factories the tank of kraut will be completely fermented within one week or ten days. In a rush season when the tanks are in demand, this rapid fermentation is indispensable. Such rapid fermentation will produce quality kraut because there is no opportunity for foreign organisms to get a start. Where the temperature is 75 degrees F. kraut will ferment out in from two to three weeks. Do not turn the steam on full or the cabbage will become scalded, and the great pressure, instead of warming the cabbage, will blow it off the conveyor. Better results are obtained by heating the cabbage than by heating the fermentation room only. If possible, in addition to heating the cabbage, the room should also be heated. Pederson has found that the lower the temperature the slower the rate of fermentation and that when the temperature of the factory is high, the fermentation rate is more rapid, because the cabbage is warmed during the shredding.

The cabbage should be evenly distributed after being salted and packed as solidly as possible. Fill the tank several inches from the top and cover with a layer of clean cabbage leaves, put the cover in place and weight it down with barrels of water or paraffined concrete blocks. Instead of using the cabbage leaves, a canvas or muslin cover can be used. Do not use more weights than are necessary as it is not desirable to have a brine or juice above the cover as it will encourage yeast growth. Usually the day after filling, the cabbage has settled so that the head can be keyed down in the same manner as pickle tanks. While filling with cabbage, it is the practice with some to have the drain plug open and run off the brine until the tank is filled, then close and key the cover down. Others will open the plug at the end of 24 hours in order to settle the cabbage and then key the cover in place. These methods lose brine that may be valuable kraut juice, and also a fine media for the bacterial growth. As the fermentation is lactic, it is advisable to exclude the air as much as possible, in order that the lactic ferment will predominate. Any scum forming on the top of the tank should be removed and not allowed to settle down into the kraut, because yeast will produce an odor and flavor due to its growth. The odor may penetrate into the kraut and produce an undesirable odor. If the kraut is held over in tanks during the summer, it is well to place dry salt around the edge, along the cracks and over the top of the tank. This strong salt acts as a germicide to the bacteria, and also keeps out the air somewhat.

When the tanks are opened, it is necessary to remove the kraut from the top. Active fermentation will start within a few days after filling, and it is well to make daily acidity determinations, the same as in salting pickles, as this is a very good check on the rate of fermentation. As long as the acidity is increasing, active fermentation is continuing and when it ceases, fermentation is either dormant or ended. When the acidity reaches 1.6 per cent it is thought to have reached the proper acidity.

Pederson has found three active bacterial fermentations. The first is due to Leuconistoc mesenteroides which grow best at about 70 degrees F. when 2 to 2% per cent salt has been used. This organism acts on the sugar and produces lactic and acetic acids, alcohol, mannitol and carbon dioxide. The acids and alcohol form esters which produce some aroma. This fermentation ceases when the acidity reaches 0.7 to 1.0 per cent due to the death of this organism. The second fermentation is due to two species—Lactobacillus plantarum and Lactobacillus cucumeris. These also produce lactic acid from the remaining sugar and mannitol. These bacteria are also killed off. The third group which causes fermentation is due to the Leuconistoc mesenteroides which will complete the fermentation. It seems to take the successive fermentation to produce the proper flavored kraut.

Cabbage containing approximately 4 per cent of sugar should produce about 2 per cent lactic acid. Chemical analysis shows that all of the sugar is not converted into lactic acid, some being changed into alcohol, acetic and butyric acids. The results from approximately fifteen samples showed an average salt content of 15 degrees, an acidity of 1.6 per cent and 0.68 per cent of alcohol. A compilation of this data will be the only correct way of arriving at standards. Cabbage can be inoculated with pure cultures of lactic acid of the particular strain that causes the lactic fermentation in cabbage. On account of the great care necessary in growing and handling the pure cultures of lactic acid and the little benefit derived from its use, many prefer not to inoculate, but aid in the development of the natural ferment present on the cabbage when cut. To aid in fermentation, brine from active tanks can be used to inoculate new or inactive ones.

After complete fermentation is over, the kraut can be packed in barrels that have vent holes, so they can be easily rebrined or to allow any gas to pass off should further fermentation set in.

Kraut with an acidity of 1.4 per cent will carry a salt of 14 degrees (3.5 per cent) while a kraut with an acidity of 1.25 per cent will take a 12-degree (3 per cent) salt very nicely. This ratio of salt to acid seems to blend quite well, neither too salty nor too sour. Kraut containing from 2.0 to 2.5 per cent salt seemed to have the best texture. A low salt content will ordinarily produce a kraut that may be too soft to can, whereas too high a content may allow the development of pink yeast.



The following tentative standards have been adopted by the National Kraut Association:

TENTATIVE DEFINITIONS OF POINTS FOR DETERMINING GOOD EDIBLE SAUERKRAUT FOR BOTH BULK AND CANNED

Flavor
The kraut should have a normal acid flavor, indicative of a properly fermented product. It must never be bitter, sweet or rancid. Brine should show a salometer reading of not more than 20.

Cut
The shreds should be uniform in length and thickness as possible and the number of broad pieces of cores must not be excessive.

Color
The color should be light straw or golden; neither white nor dark yellow, and free from black or brown spots.

Crispness
The kraut should be fairly firm in texture, without being tough. It must never be mushy.

Fill
The fill must comply with all the government regulations. The canning kraut and kraut juice will be discussed under the heading of Canning of Vegetables. Canned kraut and kraut juice is to be found under Canning.

TROUBLES:—Yellow kraut may be due to failure to remove sufficient green leaves or as it becomes older it may take on a yellowish tint.

Black or dark kraut may be due to an excessive amount of iron, or to over cooking or again due to contact with the wood of the barrels.

Pink kraut is due to yeast fermentation and may occur when the salt content is rather high.

Off-taste is often prevalent due to contact with kraut that has an offensive odor or taste, or even due to storage in improperly cleaned and paraffined barrels. It should be mentioned that a yeasty or even a butyric fermentation will produce an off-taste.

Due to secondary fermentation of barreled kraut the brine may be forced out of the barrel and if neglected and not rebrined, undesirable organisms may enter and cause soft, mushy, spoiled kraut.



Wednesday, October 06, 2004

The Old Fashioned San Francisco Pacific Slope Sourdough French Bread

3-Feb-2011 - If you decide to do this, you will have about 70 pounds of sponge, if, and only if, you start with 1/4 tsp. of flour and 1/4 tsp. of water. It will cost around $45.00 U.S. to make real sourdough starter. That is based on buying 3 bags of bread flour at 25#s each.


I promised to write about fermented foods. As some fermentations must/should be done carefully, such as cured salmon (lox), smoked hams, et cetera, I am reserving those for later. The amount of science that needs to be presented is much larger than making:


Old Fashioned San Francisco Pacific Slope Sourdough French Bread


First, I want to mention tasting San Francisco Sourdough for the first time. In 1969, in San Francisco, at Fisherman's Wharf, at the Magic Crepe restaurant, I was given a basket of bread and some butter. The bread was so much better than the crepe that I don't remember what kind of crepe I had. I do remember the bread.

It wasn't unusual to look at. Or so I thought. Looked pretty much like other bread. Being from St. Louis, I was familiar with French bread. Or so I thought. St. Louis bakers are second to none. But those few slices of Sourdough changed my life. Well, my food life, anyway. The bread was delicious. The sweet butter a perfect foil to the sour taste. But there was something more to those morsels. The slices had a chewy texture. It wasn't soft like all the other breads I had ever eaten. The crumb had a golden cast about it. Something stood out and it's has been a memory ever since.


Every cookbook author, food editor, culinary kook and your truly have attempted to make sourdough bread in our homes, or have tried to explain how to make sourdough to others.


The Joy of Cooking has a recipe. Julia Child's The Way to Cook has a recipe. James Beard gives a recipe, Craig Claiborne gives a recipe, in fact, every major cookbook author in any of the cookbooks they have written that has a baking or bread chapter, gives a recipe. Whole cookbooks are devoted to the making and baking of sourdough breads. The Library of Congress holds 22 books on sourdough baking. It might be the most interpreted (and inaccurate) recipe given throughout the entire cookbook kingdom. And I'm not even going to more than touch on the food columns in newspapers. Eeeek! The Internet is loaded with mistaken sourdough starter ideas.


So, what's different here? I'm taking my facts from:


HANDBOOK OF DOUGH FERMENTATIONS by Karel Kulp and Klaus Lorenz. (NY : Marcel Dekker, c.2003)


It a 328 page book that cost $175.00. The authors are well known in their fields. What's best, however, is that they are writing for bakeries, not microbiologists. The theorems they give about bread are just as applicable in the kitchen as in the science laboratory. It is also the culmination of research into sourdough fermentations stemming back to the work of Doctors. Frank T. Sugihara and Leo Kline, in the 1970s.


These two scientists, working for the Agricultural Research Service of the United States Department of Agriculture; isolated the native microorganisms growing in San Francisco Sourdough bread. This only after exhaustive experimentation that lead to the determination the microorganisms were unusual because one fed on the maltose in the flour and the other fed on anything but maltose. Maltose is a sugar. Maltose is the sugar that yeast eats to make beer or ale. There are about 20 sugars in flour.


So, they named the bacteria Lactobacillus San Francisco to honor it's place of discovery. Technically the microorganism is named: lactobacillus sanfranciscensis, a Latin name. Over time, the yeast, first named Saccharomyces (pron. Sack-haro-my-ses) exiguous (pron. Ecks-idge-u-us) and sometimes spelled exiguus (the Latin name) had it's name changed to Torulopsis Holmii, then to Candida Milleri Yarrow and lastly (so far) to Candida Humilis. So far, nobody in the microorganism naming community can give me an adequate explanation for the changing names. I do know it has to do with the DNA and the yeast's genetic structure, however.


The important thing in all of this, at least to the food scientists is that the two microorganisms form what is called a symbiotic relationship. They don't compete for the same sugars. There is plenty of food to go around. And because they aren't competing for food, they aren't using up the invaluable amino acids, which are responsible for the flavor of the Sourdough bread.


With that discovery the secret of San Francisco Sourdough bread was revealed. It was now possible to make Old Fashioned San Francisco Pacific Slope Sourdough French Bread, anywhere.


Now as all of us know, sourdough bread is made by taking a piece of former dough and using it to get the new batch of bread started. So the only problem for baker's is how to get the first piece. This is a major error in all those cookery books exacting this in a recipe. The recipes that call for starter without giving the baker an idea of where to get some are ultimately useless.


If you were in San Francisco, perhaps a sourdough baker would give you a piece of dough. Then, once you got home, you could rush into the kitchen and start fermenting your loaves. Not a likely scenario. First, not many baker's are going to give away their secret ingredient. Second, if you don't refresh the dough every few hours, the micro-organisms in symbiotic relationship die from the high acidity. Then you no longer have San Francisco sourdough. So what is special about my method is that, even in you don't bake all the time and your starter dies, you can re-start it quite easily. But I bet that those who follow this easy recipe will never quit making sourdough bread.


The following is the rough recipe of hundreds if not thousands of cookbook authors, food essayists and the lot. Mostly they say, take a cup of flour add a cup of water, stir out the lumps and set the covered bowl in a warm place for two to three days. How will those floating microorganisms land in the soup? Some add salt, some add an herb, some use buttermilk. Sometimes the liquid from boiled potatoes or potato skins replaces the water. And while all these recipe theorems will work, none will make the San Francisco sourdough bread. Not the same taste, not the same texture. Now way, no how. Which isn't to say that they don't make a naturally fermented bread, they do. The San Francisco flavor can only come with repeated refreshments, to use the baker's term.


Why? Well theories on that point differ radically. Some say the microorganisms are wild and floating around in the air. Others speculate that the quality of the flour has much to do with the fermentations. I have read a serious scientific paper on the quantity of lactobacillus microorganisms being greater on wheat near humanly populated areas than wheat in less populated areas. Another research paper says that there are about 400 types of microorganisms in a fermenting loaf. Other papers say that the sanfranciscensis microorganism is about 36% of that 400, that is to say, by quantity it predominates, naturally. So the question becomes, how to nurture those San Francisco organisms along and not get anything bad going. That's what the Handbook of Dough Fermentations is all about. The piece of information lacking was to not make bread after two to three or four days, but that the starter needed about two to three weeks of refreshments. And it needed specific amounts of water and flour and at very specific intervals.


I'm currently of the belief that you might do the refreshments for a whole month or 6 weeks before baking your first loaf. That is probably how Isidore Boudin had to do it. Boudin is the oldest sourdough bakery in San Francisco. Established in 1849. He came from a village along the Swiss French border. The boat trip across the ocean allowed no baking. There were no bread ovens on wooden ships. The Boudin Bakery still uses the same starter he began over 155 years ago. Impressive. In the last decade, Italian food scientists have asked to have the Lactobacillus San Francisco renamed. They reason that no microorganism could have originated in the United States. That may be true. The microorganism named lactobacillus Brevis subspecies Lindneri has remarkable similar DNA to Sanfranciscensis. The Italians claimed that the microorganism originated in pannetone.


Ed Behr, America's foremost food essayist, writes about French bread, especially the baguette. He bemoans the loss of quality of the bread and talks about France's leading authority of bread making Raymond Clavel. He talks about using minute amounts of fava bean flour or some such thing. He talks of the speed of the mixers and how that effects gluten development (which it does), he saddens as he writes that French boulangeries make bread in mere hours instead of overnight. It's really a very well written and researched paper. He's lots of fun to read. I almost feel sorry for the French. Yet, the large yeast manufacturers (Red Star, Fleischmann's, Lallemand) all have select microorganisms for making sourdough at the bakery. So the French have little or no excuse, any longer.


What follows below is why all the other recipes don't work. Why this one will. The symbiotic relationship takes time to mature, just like fine wine. Fine cheese. Fine hams and fermented sausages.


Table from HANDBOOK OF DOUGH FERMENTATIONS


There are three superscripts in the following table. In the book they
are labeled, a, b, and c. Having no way to make a superscript letter in this weblog, I have denominated them by: sup.a, b, c.


From the Chapter "Baker's Yeast and Sourdough in U.S. Bread Products"
/ Karel Kulp. Page 117-

Table 6 Development of Sourdough Starter
Maturing
time (hours)
Temp.
(F/C)
Amount Starter (WU) sup.a Flour sup.b Water Total
24 95/35 -- 1 1.25 2.25
8 95/35 2.25 1 1.25 4.5
16 95/35 4.50 2 2.50 9.00
8 80/27 9.00 sup.c 16 20 45
16 80/27 45 80 100 225
8 80/27 225 400 500 1125
16 80/27 1125 2000 2500 5625
8 80/27 5625 1000 12500 28125
16 80/27 28125 50000 62500 140625
8 80/27 140625 250000 312500 703125
16-64 39/4 703125

703125



sup.a - Weight units (WU) based on any unit: gram, kilogram, ounce or pound


sup.b - In [the] first two replenishments, the flour and water are doubled


sup.c - In subsequent replenishments, the multiplier 4 is used (the multiplier is the amount of flour and water added to sourdough starter in the replenishment steps). The rate of replenishment increases the total starter fivefold. Source: Ref. 32.


[slightly above the table in the original text -- Secret_Ingredient]


"The development of natural sour is outlined in Table 6, which details flour water ratios, temperature, and maturing times. According to this schedule, the staring flour-water blend is set at 82-85 degrees F. (28-30 degrees C.) and kept at 90-95 degrees F. (32-35 degrees C.) for 24h. During that time, some acidity develops. At that point the flour-water blend must be supplied with additional fresh flour and water . . .


Replenished (refreshed) starters are best set and kept at 75-80 degrees F. (24-27 degrees C.) Non-refrigerated sourdoughs after reaching maturity should be kept at cooler temperatures and must be replenished at least daily . . .


Development of a properly matured starter does not only require an achievement of the proper degree of acidity, generally indicated by pH values within 3.6. to 3.8, and total titratable acidity of 16-20mL . . . even after this stage has been reached, development requires an additional 6-8 replenishments with maturing at 80 degrees F. for full flavor and leavening quality."


This starter is quite slack a bakery term for dough that very soft. And as the amount of flour to water is nearly even, the starter is like pancake batter at it's thickest.


Once your starter is fully developed, shape it into loaves, free form or put it into Pullman molds, if you want a Wonder-Bread shape. Bake the loaves for 40 to 50 minutes at 425 degrees Fahrenheit. Allow to cool to a temperature at which you can slice the bread, in about an hour.


So if all the foregoing is true, why hasn't everybody started making the real thing? I surmise my answer. The bakers are either too lazy or the clients don't care for the taste. Making and maintaining the starter is much work. Although after the symbiotic balance is achieved, the starter can be refrigerated between uses.


An oven with a pilot light, is over 90 degrees. (around 140 degrees) With the oven door ajar, the temperature isn't warm enough. (70 to 80 degrees). So all I can suggest to get the right temperature for extended periods of time is to use a heating pad, which you will put a glass of liquid on and measure and adjust the thermostat until you can maintain 95 degrees Fahrenheit for the requisite amount of time.


It is somewhat understandable that the quantities seem overly large for the home kitchen. The point to remember is that after the symbiotic relationship has been successfully obtained that the starter can be refreshed less frequently. And that it can be refrigerated between refreshments. In truth, this is a recipe for home bakers that bake at least once a week and preferably more frequently. And if you are a home baker that bakes around holidays, then you can have your starter ready to go with six weeks advance preparation.


A little more information. The amount of this starter to use varies with how fast you want your loaves to rise. As the common knowledge holds that a longer maturing time gives rise to better flavor, it would appear that the minimal starter would be best. I'm sure that most of us aren't always home and available to pop the loaf in the oven when it reaches it's height just before baking. So you will have to experiment with the percentage of starter to control when the loaves will be ready to bake. Some sources say 40%. That is a lot and in the right temperature may have the loaves ready to bake in 8 hours. That's the best info I can give about this. Some bakers are up at 5:00 a.m.. Other bake at 4:00 p.m.. You will have to practice your own timing of this.